Saint James Infirmary 372: More Party Than Slumber, 1

[Haight]

I guess it's a fine line to walk - the male main character of Bearing Gifts seems to take a bit of pleasure in making his women suffer - not as much as the elder Kuppler in SJI, but it still passes what I find to be particularly exciting for that exact reason (though it doesn't pass into squick territory).

Martian Harem is a bit different - I love the milieu and aesthetic, even if the male MCers are pretty reprehensible sometimes.

[jmundt29]

I'm in mostly the same boat, though I've been begging for one of Daphne's "ordinary guys" to show up somewhere anywhere in Martian Harem for...what two years now?

Cuckoo's Nest is blessedly different because the gals are the main characters and the guys who intersect with them and might be jerks are only around for an episode or two before they go off for fun somewhere else.

The guys I tend to be most comfortable with are Adrian and the two guys from Faerie Tail (although I'm waiting to see how this new gentleman develops).  The first guy knew how to walk the line between aggression and interest.  This guy is holding himself back though I can't tell if it's genuine affection or fear.  I'm hoping for genuine affection because then he'd develop along a parallel path to Adrian and I could enjoy the different choices he'd make in his universe vs. the ones that Adrian makes.

[Haight]

Cuckoo's nest is great for what it is, but it's a totally different kind of story. I love seeing what the Honeys are up to, though.

Daffyd is probably the controller that I enjoy the most, as some of his reactions seem pretty 'real' and he's not trying to white knight particularly hard. My only real complaint, as mentioned upthread, is that he turned back the clock on some BE.

[Daphne]

My only real complaint, as mentioned upthread, is that he turned back the clock on some BE.

You'll probably like the next one, then.

[jmundt29]

When the site started, Daffyd was my favorite character, and HK was my favorite comic.  Then the story and art of SJI really started to develop and there was that enforced furlough when folks couldn't re-up their subscriptions.  SJI became the focal point, and the art and story have merited it since then.  And some of what I really enjoyed in the early HK has been worn away as Daffyd has grown into his power.  Then, a wide variety of gorgeous comics have also come forward and absorbed some of that spotlight.

[Haight]

Yeah, I came to the site because someone was posting HK and BR to /d/ - those are still great comics, mind, but there's others in different styles that are great. Cuckoo's Nest, in particular, succeeds very well at doing what it does, and it's usually pretty humorous *and* sexy. SJI has really taken off, as jmundt mentioned, and the characters are good and the art keeps getting better, but there's just something about the MC heat of it that hasn't quite fallen into place for me. The only one that I out and out don't care for is Chrysalis, just because 'living doll' transformation are so eh for me, but I don't go in there and shit up the threads for the people who *do* enjoy it.

I guess the reason why I mention the things I do about SJI is that it's something I perceive as a flaw on an otherwise very enjoyable comic - I still enjoy when each page comes out, certainly.

[GodWilling]

The thing I struggle to understand is why anyone cares about male mind controllers either being portrayed as jerks in the stories, or being dismissed as jerks in discussions like this.

But then my "interest" is in what's happening to the victims - what's happening in their minds. That's probably why I prefer Free Cable to, say, Bearing Gifts or By The Book. And I like peril. So a mind controller with evil intent is inherently better. The Martian Harem, with all those dangerous cups of tea, is good for peril, although obviously you know what's going to happen every time. Beyond Rubies: all about the victims. Con'Fused and Cuckoo's Nest: endless use of mind control, and in the latter endless shifts of power, which I think is why it's my favourite of the "other" comics.

I'd freely admit if I identified with the controllers in these stories but I really don't. And I think you'd have to in order to care what they're like. To me they're only there to create victims. And to be honest I think they're bigger jerks if they think they're caring for their victims than if they have no such delusion.

[jmundt29]

Okay, help me out.  Do you read fiction outside this genre for entertainment?  What about watching movies or TV shows (outside the lamentable reality explosion)?  When I engage in those activities, I find that I put more into the book or film or tv drama if I like some of the characters than if I find them all wholly despicable.  Even if a large group of wholly despicable characters are well-portrayed and are interwoven into a well-told tale, my enjoyment of the enterprise is muted.

For instance, I find There Will Be Blood a nightmare to watch even though it is well-made because the characters are so awful.

It's part of how I read, and I can't completely turn it off when approaching Daphne's excellent work.

[GodWilling]

I never identify with characters in stories (of whatever form). I never put myself in their place. I don't care if I like or dislike the characters as people; what matters is whether I like the storytelling. I'm not a writer but I'm more interested in storytelling than I am in stories, if that makes sense.

[Haight]

The thing I struggle to understand is why anyone cares about male mind controllers either being portrayed as jerks in the stories, or being dismissed as jerks in discussions like this.

It's not so much that, as when someone in an MC erotica story doesn't MC someone because it would be wrong. Like, I get it, and could pontificate at great length on the morality of what's going on if it came up. But not in my erotica - to me it's a little frustrating, and has an unfortunate analog to the real-world idea held by some that a man's desire for a woman is inherently harmful to the object of his affections. While obviously the actions taken in these fantastical stories push past consent, that's the kink - and the real-world manifestations of these desires, in the context of sexual play, do not.

But then my "interest" is in what's happening to the victims - what's happening in their minds. That's probably why I prefer Free Cable to, say, Bearing Gifts or By The Book. And I like peril. So a mind controller with evil intent is inherently better. The Martian Harem, with all those dangerous cups of tea, is good for peril, although obviously you know what's going to happen every time. Beyond Rubies: all about the victims. Con'Fused and Cuckoo's Nest: endless use of mind control, and in the latter endless shifts of power, which I think is why it's my favourite of the "other" comics.

I'd freely admit if I identified with the controllers in these stories but I really don't. And I think you'd have to in order to care what they're like. To me they're only there to create victims. And to be honest I think they're bigger jerks if they think they're caring for their victims than if they have no such delusion.

I'll be honest: my ideal ending for a mind control story is when the MCed 'victim' ends up a happy slave or servant of her master or mistress (I mainly find female-subject stories hot, with a few exceptions here and there, though the controller could be of either sex). Some struggle and trial and travail along the way? Certainly. But I'm not particularly invested in the idea of being MCed as a 'bad end' or whatever people are calling it these days. For me, a mind controller with evil intent can take the fun out of the story - if we had to read about the elder Kuppler as the main character in SJI, with him MCing his slaves to walk to the edge of tall buildings and reveling in his ability to have them jump, if he so chose, I'd be pretty turned off. Even what the main character of Bearing Gifts does is kind of meh for me - I mentally fast forward through the humiliation and degradation bits. However, I definitely like to see a main character interested in using his or her MC capabilities to bed women - and the MC-induced receptiveness of the women certainly makes it hot. If the controller cares about their subjects, so much the better - again, inasmuch as these fictional stories are holograms of our real-life behavior, I don't think that the dom in a relationship with a strong dom/sub character is deluding himself when he cares about his sub. For my part, I have a hard time being sexually attracted to someone on any level except the most purely physical unless I care for them on some level, and mixing that with an mc kink produces an opinion as I've described.

As far as identifying or putting myself in the place of the controllers in these stories: I wouldn't say that I put myself in the place of them, but for whatever reason if they're too sadistic (or too passive) the story just won't have heat for me.

[jmundt29]

I don't know that liking necessarily means identifying with a character.  Although that line would be hard to draw.  But basically what I'm taking from this is that you'd like Sinclair Lewis' satires as expressions of art and skill because he tells his story well and the aspects of traits or behavior of particular characters like Elmer Gantry or Babbitt are of little importance.  This is edifying.  It's very different from the way I read...I don't know if I was taught to read that way or it's a force of habit, or some combination of them.

I think I'm along the same line as Haight, but perhaps not as far down it which makes me pricklier about characters.

But again, yes following Jakob's exploits sucks all the fun out of the modes of mind control.  Now, the guy from Faerie Tail 1 is more entertaining (so far) than the guy from Faerie Tail 2.  But, the experimenter from Chrysalis is more fun and less aggressive in the current continuum than he is in the guest pages where he's so bored, he can't find amusement even in blissful sensation, and that ennui tends to make him cruel or dismissive (which is a couple steps away from Jakob or Bertram).

[GodWilling]

As in all things: it depends what you mean...

I think if you've deliberately made someone dependent on you (by MC) and you believe you're being a caring person by being there for them to satisfy the needs you implanted - if you're giving yourself a pat on the back for treating them so well, then you're kidding yourself. That's what I meant.

I don't want stories to end at the point a watch is waved in someone's face. But equally I really don't need to read about the second time the controller and the victim have sex after the watch has been waved. That's a generalization but you get the idea - by that point the mind control is done. I bang on about the peril thing; I don't really understand it. But someone falling into a trap is one aspect of it - drugged drinks being a classic example. But as a reader you don't necessarily know what the trap is. I don't see mind control as an ending in itself; you have to see what the consequence is. Obviously because stuff happening to women's minds gives us those climbing-the-ropes feelings, it doesn't trouble us. But yeah, sometimes you start to suspect that the author hates women and that becomes a problem. With Jakob, I think the impression has been given that he's a cruel and crazy bastard. But I don't feel his exploits have been presented to us for our masturbatory consideration, if you see what I mean. He's just a cruel and crazy bastard who happened to find himself in an MC story.

I rarely seem to encounter MC stories where characters have qualms about what they're doing. It doesn't bother me if a writer wants to explore that - but, yeah, it probably won't be a particularly hot story. I actually don't think the kink for me is anything to do with consent; I think it's about the loss of control and the shift of power. I think that's why I'm not really interested in the character of the controller - or at least why I don't set moral standards for him (or preferably her) to live up to. It may also be why the peril thing appeals.

This is edifying.  It's very different from the way I read...I don't know if I was taught to read that way or it's a force of habit, or some combination of them.

I'm British. I don't actually live my life; I detachedly watch it happening and note each of its ironies. Why would I read stories any differently?

[jmundt29]

I...I was about to say he didn't implant them, and he's been a considerate skilled and caring lover in a situation that he's been told is intractable.  You've just seen him pump the brakes when the viewing public (including me) would prefer that he didn't (particularly given the alternative that Pearl's about to choose).  Incidentally, how many times have Erin and Adrian had sex now?  Has any of instances not been scorching hot?

I like controlled aggression in the controller, but it should be in the service of actual passion.  Most of the vids and comics that I'm lukewarm on have gentlemen controllers who give the impression "I'm having sex with my thrall...ah, damn, did I check my fantasy league before kickoff?  Where's my IPad?"  They don't care about the women or the pleasure, and they're so bored with the very dullness of life that they can't even satisfy their own egos.  Does this mean they've become "Continental?"  Or just insufferable pricks?

Anyway...

[Haight]

I don't want stories to end at the point a watch is waved in someone's face. But equally I really don't need to read about the second time the controller and the victim have sex after the watch has been waved. That's a generalization but you get the idea - by that point the mind control is done. I bang on about the peril thing; I don't really understand it. But someone falling into a trap is one aspect of it - drugged drinks being a classic example. But as a reader you don't necessarily know what the trap is. I don't see mind control as an ending in itself; you have to see what the consequence is. Obviously because stuff happening to women's minds gives us those climbing-the-ropes feelings, it doesn't trouble us. But yeah, sometimes you start to suspect that the author hates women and that becomes a problem. With Jakob, I think the impression has been given that he's a cruel and crazy bastard. But I don't feel his exploits have been presented to us for our masturbatory consideration, if you see what I mean. He's just a cruel and crazy bastard who happened to find himself in an MC story.

I'm definitely leery of stories that open with 'and my boss is a bitch, so imma mc her to punish her.' But some stories that start that way have gone interesting places. In a counterpoint to you, I like to see the results of mind control, the day after, and the day after that - reading about a female character who's been mind controlled to be a happy slave to her master, and knowing that was the result of mind control, is super hot. It's even hotter if the *character* is aware of it, and ok with it, and then we get into serial recruitment stories that can be pretty interesting. Peril is fun for me, to a point, but there's a point at which it becomes too negative of a thing for the female character to have heat to it; sex-as-punishment is not a hot story for me.

I rarely seem to encounter MC stories where characters have qualms about what they're doing. It doesn't bother me if a writer wants to explore that - but, yeah, it probably won't be a particularly hot story. I actually don't think the kink for me is anything to do with consent; I think it's about the loss of control and the shift of power. I think that's why I'm not really interested in the character of the controller - or at least why I don't set moral standards for him (or preferably her) to live up to. It may also be why the peril thing appeals.

I'm very much in favor of stories that focus on what the female MC subject is feeling - sometimes you can have a story that is only peripherally about or involves little sex and have it still be hot as hell. I'm not sure if the kink for me is consent; I find stories involving explicit nonconsent to be turnoffs. Mind control was something I've been in to since I was very, very young - the hypnosis in Tintin comics was something that I fixated on before I even really understood sex or sexuality, for some reason. For me, a good part of the heat of MC is the changing of a female subject's desires to match with that of her controller, and for her to be happy serving him from then on. There's all sorts of my most base desires that come out in this kink; the desire to have multiple women who are exclusive, master/slave relationships, that sort of thing. For a woman to not be jealous at all of her male partner's extracurricular activities, in fact to be supportive, yet to have the desire to have none herself, is one of those fantasies that I hope is self-evidently hot, and combining that sort of thing with my own weird fascination with mind control results in part of my kink set. So I think what makes it hot for me is the changing of what a female subject wants - for you it's about the loss of control, for me it's about the willingness to surrender control, I guess?

[Daphne]

I like to see the results of mind control, the day after, and the day after that

So, with full understanding that you are allowed to find whatever you want hot, that would seem to be kind of a good summary of SJI, but it seems to be missing the mark. I'm curious (really! not poking!) as to what might be going on there.