Saint James Infirmary 315: Riposte

[Daphne]

Tuesday, July 29th!

[jmundt29]

Well, that title would appear to be appropriate for the beginning of the duel.

[mns_95125]

Daphne is tricky.   But I concur.

[Haight]

What does that feel like, Daphne? A migraine? The wickedest ice cream headache ever?

And where do Erin and Miriam get their chest protectors made?

[Prezfevr18]

So what are the odds Miriam ISN'T under some form of long term control and/or repressive trauma?

[Haight]

Well it's gotta be mind control. I'm guessing that someone (likely Q) did a shoddy job at programming her via PC, trying to get her to not have sex too early, and possibly to reinforce certain 'truths' ("Pink Clouds was used on your mom"). We still don't know Miriam's motivation for informing on her mom, right? I mean, I doubt Q would have used PC on Miriam to get her to inform on him and Jacqui, so there's some actor here we're missing. Maybe Yves, but Yves doesn't come off as that much of a douche. But this is *years* ago, and it's implied that PC doesn't last quite that long. Perhaps, however, Miriam is particularly susceptible to it?

Obviously what we're waiting for here is the deprogramming scene with all of its lovely side effects.

[GodWilling]

Miriam is more important than that though, isn't she? She's page 300 important. She's Jacqui-knew-Adrian's-parents important. She's the-same-age-as-Adrian important. Or maybe she isn't... But my feeling is that her mental chastity belt is something to do with Rain's Promise rather than just, well, a young woman's chastity. And, I mean, looking at the broader picture... OK, guessing at what the broader picture might look like: Miriam must surely have some relevance to the present-day story mustn't she? Surely she hasn't been introduced just to tell us her backstory?

Is the looming presence of the bell tower here significant?

I've never seen Star Wars. Sorry, that just blurted itself out.

Did Laura actually test Pink Clouds on Jacqui, or did Jacqui just spray it on herself?

[Haight]

Jacqui sprayed it on herself, but she didn't get the 'zoned out' effect, right?

I mean, I figure Miriam is important, but we haven't seen her in any of the flash-forwards, right?

[GodWilling]

I just meant that we didn't see Laura testing Pink Clouds on Jacqui, which is what Erin says happened here. And it didn't seem like Laura had much time to perform any such test subsequently. But, yeah, I imagine Laura's test would have been much the same as Jacqui's, except she would probably have had a clipboard, or something.

Possibly to include Miriam in a future page would be too much of a spoiler? Regardless, I don't think we can take too much from her non-appearance. Besides, I'm too busy taking too much from what we do see...

[Haight]

I wonder if part of the reason we haven't seen her in the flash-forwards is not so much that she's not important, but that something bad happened to her.

I for whatever reason have a hunch that even the 'good' future is not actually ideal or what will happen if Adrian does right.

[GodWilling]

Yeah, I've speculated that the "good" outcome is the result of doing the "wrong" thing - Adrian's corruption perhaps. I wonder if the three outcomes we've seen all stem from one fork in the road - and whether the choice is Adrian's to make. I've tended to see them as: do nothing; do the right thing; do the wrong thing. But it's hard to see how a future fork would lead to his being reunited with Echo. I suppose the choice of Betrayal as Erin and Weston's play in that future might point towards it being a future fork though - although if it does then that doesn't seem to tally with "do nothing". I've wondered though if that outcome stems from a path Adrian already didn't take in New York. Maybe it's "Betrayal" that catches his eye, rather than Erin's name.

[jmundt29]

Unsurprisingly, I heartily disagree.  It doesn't look like the Kupplers "won" in any of the three rolls of the Destiny Dice.  If the three possible futures represent three results of the same decision, I would label them thusly:

1. Too soon
2. Too late and
3. Just right (or very close).

In Dystopian Future #1, Adrian discovers a way to neutralize the Kupplers, but he moves too soon.  It eliminates the Kupplers, but shatters the SJI (Rain's anger might be a part of this).  He ends up with Echo, miserable with zero prospects.  Erin vents her anger on the stage and shows questionable taste getting tied up with Weston.

#2 aka Pyrrhic Victory shows the cost of delay.  Adrian learns of a way to deal with the Kupplers and other adversaries, but hesitates...perhaps out of fear.  By the time he does act, victory costs him his health and Erin's (health and life).  He is left with Rain and Dani for comfort.

#3 seems to be One Possible Paradise.  The SJI are alive and happy, and the next generation is flourishing.  To me, this seems like the right decision at almost precisely the right time.  It eliminated threats, ensured real, lasting happiness, and partially realized Rain's objective.

[mns_95125]

We still don't know Miriam's motivation for informing on her mom, right? I mean, I doubt Q would have used PC on Miriam to get her to inform on him and Jacqui, so there's some actor here we're missing.

Is it possible that Miriam ratted Q out to the cops over Pink Clouds and that he then used it on her to get revenge by messing up her sex life and relationship with her mother?  Ockham's Razor suggests we shouldn't multiply mind-controllers beyond necessity, and we already have one (Q) that we know had the means and opportunity to mess with Miriam.  We just don't know the exact motive.

[Haight]

From my understanding of it, it's not like Miriam informed on Q *then* implicated her mom. But I dunno, it hasn't been explained clearly in the comic and the people in question's memories aren't really... reliable.

[GodWilling]

It's true that we don't know anything about any other mind controller in Miriam's life, but Q's means is only Pink Clouds as far as we know. Yves's assessment was that PC suggestions last "hours, days, weeks." Do we know how long Q was inside for?

It's feasible that Q would want Miriam to make demonstrably false accusations in order to discredit her as a witness. But would he have had any access to her after her (true) accusations were made?

We might call Q a mind controller, but he's really just a man with Pink Clouds in his pocket. And it appears he was selling the stuff. That suggests there were other equally talented mind controllers in this story. But before we leap to conclusions, we should remember that whole "honour amongst drug dealers" thing.

And as I say, we believe some kind of mind control was going on with (or on) Adrian's parents. And Jacqui met them before Miriam was born. And... well, I don't know. My only point really is that there appears to be more to this story than the Q/Pink Clouds aspect. And it seems to me that that "more" centres on Miriam.

It doesn't look like the Kupplers "won" in any of the three rolls of the Destiny Dice.

I like your Goldilocks approach to the three outcomes but... It doesn't look like there are any horses in any of the three rolls either. Where have the horses gone? Which is to say: how can you determine anything about the Kupplers from those pages? As I discussed recently in the Heroes thread, Rain doesn't consider outcome 2 to be a Pyrrhic Victory. We have no idea if she would approve of the action required to reach outcome 3. For all we know Adrian's life in 3 is being bankrolled by Jakob. Equally we have no idea if what Rain is trying to achieve is essentially "good" or "bad".

If 1 is the result of a future choice that Adrian could make, then it appears that it is the chance to free the women (including those in New York) from the watch. We don't know that the women aren't free in the other outcomes, but I've never believed a freed Erin would be happy with Adrian (Betrayal seems a much more likely reaction). My wondering was whether 1 represented a future in which Echo was never taken and Adrian therefore never came to Kearsarge.