Saint James Infirmary 309: Don't Rush Off.

[Haight]

Yeah, well, show me a fictional work like that that's *entirely* internally consistent. 

We are still wrestling with issues of determinism in the real world, let alone fictional ones.

[Daphne]

I'm going to overlook the difficulty of reconciling destiny with the at least three outcomes

Well, destiny isn't necessarily predestination...

[Haight]

Also, the destiny could have already been fulfilled, then bad stuff could happen later.

[jmundt29]

Except, not so much.  Erin can't be dead from the struggle with the Watchmaking family, and Adrian widowed and prematurely aged and struggling with old wounds and then a decade later, they're married (comfortably, openly, and in perfect health) with a young adult daughter who takes after both of them.

Those aren't consistent with one another, to say nothing of the first possible window where Adrian is three shades above destitute, stuck with Echo (indicating that the struggle with the Kuplers is over) and Erin is off acting with Weston.  Those three outcomes are mutually exclusive.  That's why several folks have taken to viewing them as windows into possible futures.  For the record, I'm hoping for possibility #3 (married, financially comfortable, and frisky) as a minimum.  This is an American and Canadian story, not an Irish, Japanese, or Chinese one.

[Haight]

I know they're mutually exclusive.  My point was, rather, that the 'destiny' could have already been fulfilled with what's already happened at the present point, and that once that's happened a variety of things could happen, as per those three outcomes (and possibly more!  I have the sneaking suspicion that what's going to actually happen in the comic is not going to be precisely any of those.)

[GodWilling]

I'm well outside my comfort zone, which is really what I meant by the difficulties I was overlooking...

Looking up destiny in various places, I'm seeing pre-determined, unavoidable, and necessary (not all in the same definition). I don't have a problem with believing that things work that way. But I struggle with the notion that you can pick and choose: it was my destiny to be standing at the drinks machine but now I get to choose coffee or orange juice (and one way lies certain immediate death, inevitably). How is anyone supposed to know what was destiny and what wasn't?

Plus, in a universe that allows for mind control and magic, it's pretty hard from where I'm sitting to say that every single thing we've seen happen didn't happen simply because one person willed it to. I know we've had the "Fates" cover, but beyond that how can we be certain that the SJI universe allows for destiny?

Personally I'm quite happy with the idea that Adrian may have put Echo behind him and moved into Dani's house by sheer chance. It would appear to be a remarkable coincidence, though.

(I also still contend that in a universe that allows for magic, we have no reason to believe the three outcomes are necessarily mutually exclusive.)

[Haight]

In the end, though, you know that Adrian's going to meet Echo again.  Eventually, there will be a reckoning with Claudia in one way or another. 

[GodWilling]

The polaroids suggest Dani inducted Claudia though, right? So he could settle that score right here, right now.

Was Echo taken specifically because she was Adrian's girlfriend? That's not asked in expectation of an answer, but it's an interesting question in terms of Adrian's Destiny and The Promise and whatever's going on with Jakob and Rain.

[Haight]

That's a good point.  I assumed she was a random casualty, so to speak, but now that we know of Adrian's connection to Kearsarge, that seems less likely. 

[jmundt29]

Doesn't that assume that this is a binary struggle, though?  The Kuplers vs. Rain with Adrian and the girls caught in the middle?  That seems a little simplistic, doesn't it?  We know that Dani was a critical target for both Claudia and the Kuplers (though to what extent we're not sure because we don't know how much of each narrative is truth, how much is carefully constructed half-truth, and how much is self-serving bull...).  There seem to be helpings of all three coming from Rain, The Kuplers, Claudia, and Dani, Q, and Cherry so far.  Although I'm most inclined to give Rain the greatest leeway and faith so far because she seems benevolent and Cherry and the Kuplers seem like selfish festering monsters, we still don't have anything close to a full picture.

[GodWilling]

Well, Echo being taken because she was Adrian's girlfriend would only necessitate one party taking one action; it doesn't tell us anything about the number of active parties in the story.

[jmundt29]

We're not sure where the Kuplers actually fit here except as the supposed source of The Watch when all the craziness begins in the SJI.  It's not clear how or why they'd have heard of Erin (if even a sliver of what Cherry's spouting is to be believed).  It's unclear how they controlled Dani to begin with if she made The Watch for them.  In order for Adrian to be a target, they have to have run across the Cavanaughs somehow before.  Maybe that would be explained if "The Gig" were extended, but not so far.  It seems like Dani and Erin are the hinges and targets for the Kuplers because Dani is the source of their power and...perhaps...Erin with her Wicca connections could be the key to expanding and adding different layers to it.  I don't think Adrian fits at all.  It would be interesting to find out exactly why Adrian went to his parents' alma mater to salve his broken heart if he's never heard his parents' old college stories (as seems likely from his reactions early in the comic).

ETA--One possibility I hadn't considered just dropped on me.  Perhaps Big Pappa Kupler partially funded the Belltower Mating Experiment in '83, one of the results of which was Patrick & Miel coupling up.  Or, one of the sons could have been involved in research gathering and tabulation for the experiment.  I got the sense that they would have been the wrong age (too old) to feasibly be subjects themselves.

I have a random question.  Does Adrian have any siblings?  He seems to have been conceived right around the time of "The Gig."  Did the experiment directly result in the conception of a slightly older Cavanaugh sibling?  Neither Patrick nor Miel seem especially burdened by public perception of them, but we know very little about their families.  Might the experiment have forced their wedding early because their families didn't believe in single parenthood?

[GodWilling]

The note that came with the clock sent to Rain was signed "J". We're by no means certain who that is but the gift was not well received and that would appear to have been the intention. It looked like a taunt. The likelihood is that Rain knows who "J" is. If it happens to be Jakob then it may have been notice that he is still alive. But even if it isn't he then it would still seem fair to say that Rain has an adversary. Maybe it's just a rival music teacher (they can be quite moody, some of them), but since Rain has a battle on the horizon that she hopes Adrian is up to, I'm guessing it's something to do with that. But there's plenty of assumptions and sheer guesses in all of that.

Speculation - I think Jakob Kuppler has a direct connection with Wilmot. Possibly he was part of the same intake as Patrick.

I think I've suggested before that Adrian has six older brothers, as did Patrick. But I got the impression that the recent guest pages were set in July 1986 - and I didn't spot any sign that Patrick and Miel were already parents by then.

[jmundt29]

Except, based on what evidence we've seen, I'd say Jakob and his elder brother are both a minimum of five years older than Patrick.  Which makes them what?  Grad students or Pauley Shore-type RAs during the initial phase of the experiment?

I like the idea of a Adrian as a double-seven too, but evidence would seem to argue against that intriguing possibility.

[GodWilling]

Do we have any information pertaining to Jakob's age? I don't think we do but I may have forgotten something.